“Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them,

and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you:

but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto,

but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28, KJV)

The word the Athenians used for their Assembly was Ekklesia, the same word used in the New Testament for Church
(and it is the greatest philological irony in all of Western history that this word,
which connoted equal participation in all deliberation by all members,
came to designate a kind of self-perpetuating, self-protective Spartan gerousia -
which would have seemed patent nonsense to Greek-speaking Christians of New Testament times,
who believed themselves to be equal members of their Assembly.)

- Thomas Cahill, Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Matter


Tuesday, May 5, 2009

Rollback 7

Moderators Note: TOCB has advocated the unity of this community and looks to return to one Proistameno and one Philoptochos which should have occurred upon the receipt of the Metropolitan's letter announcing there would be no split. We roll back the clock to the November 2007 General Assembly where the much heralded survey results were announced. The survey responses posted are done so as they were received. TOCB has not edited or altered the survey responses.

Responses to HT/PE Survey Attending Both (6 and 7 of 8)

I do not believe in the concept of having two independent communities. This community was established with two churches & one community We had the approval of the Archbishop who indicated at the time P.E. was established & in 1992 that we were to remain one community. The people that believe we are committing spiritual polygamy if they choose should begin raising their own fund to establish a new church of its own. Our forefathers worked & donated long hard hours to establish the community we have today. I would shudder [sp] if they knew their hard work & dedication was for nothing. I used to attend both churches (H.T. & P.E) on a regular basis; however, I stopped attending P.E. because I went to church to pray. I did not attend church to be given a lecture every Sunday. (642)

The level of incompetence and blatant lying that exists especially from Kouremetis is mind numbing. It is a shame that we are in this situation. Kouremetis must leave. (246)

Πρεπει να σταματησουν τα ψευματα. Προπαντως ο Παπα Μιχαλης. Μεγαλη ντροπη (247)

If our current church leaders & priests & board members can not provide for our community then they need to be changed. (57)

I enjoy attending both churches and support all of our priests. (413)

I can see no value in anything that divides a religious community, specially in Utah. Jesus did not preach to this group or that group of people but to ALL people! It should never matter WHERE you worship -but what's important is -that you attend worship. Why are we spending energy on dividing us -instead of putting the energy to a better use -of a united group. Only a Utahn [sp} born and reared here really know[s] how hard it is to attend school, work, date and socialize but keep your own faith without the L.D. S. trying to convert you or your family; why do you think th L.D.S church began to have missionaries in 1970 in Utah? (I don't think Father Michael sees/knows this is a threat but I see it daily in my profession.) Many Orthodox Christians have been converted -please let's not have any discord in our beautiful religion -people should be able to attend the church of their choice. (585)

I believe it would be a big mistake to separate [sp] the2 churches. There is already competition between the 2 philoptochos groups. (687)

Please don't change! What about our youth -what are we teaching them? How to not get along? The Festival was bigger and better than ever - Don't ruin it! We get along great here -Please don't change anything! (762)

Maintaining current status allows the retention of community and resources. (ALEKA STAMP)

Because I am in a care center but I have attended both churches. (ALEKA STAMP)

Our churches should remain united as the Greek Orthodox Community of Greater Salt Lake. A split would be exactly like a divorce, never equal and always bitter. Once broken any unity is fractured forever. (4)

Those who want separate churches are free to find property and build their own church. The door is open, don't let it hit you on the way out. (297)

We live in a very unique city where I believe the stronger we are united the better - especially with the influence of the LDS church. I would like to see our community stay as it is -united working together. support both churches. I do not have any children yet I believe and financially support both areas because I believe in the common good of all of the parishioners. With that in mind, I donate to support all of things & items that are needed at both churches... because I feel all of us are one community. (405)

It was quite appropriate that the dissemination of this survey coincided with OXI day I say:

OXI to the surveyors. Feed my sheep the Lord said not survey them;
OXI to the propagandists providing information only after formulating their "spin";
OXI to the crypto-papists trying to impose clericalism upon the community and church;
OXI to those pitting family against family and brother against brother;
OXI to the carpetbaggers sowing the seeds of discord;
OXI to the hypocrites quoting canons in one breath while violating in another;
OXI to the split!l (1115)

We are one community with 2 places to worship. (1175)

It is one Greek Orthodox church in the Salt Lake Valley -no matter how many cathedrals. (1233)

I believe it is imperative to keep this community as one. Living in Utah this topic would not even be brought up, until we have enough people to support and attend 5-6 churches not barely 2. This topic is pushing people away from our community, not making us stronger in any way. Families in this community have mernber[s] attending both churches and friends that attend both churches. By separating [sp] the parish people are forced to make a choice of where they attend. Thus when a baptism or marriage occurs at one or the other church people will not feel the welcome -ness that they feel today. I believe that at least 2 generations will have to pass for the feelings to subside. If we focus on what our church in intended [sp] to saving souls people will give and our parish will flourish. But if we continue to politic we will have nothing. (409)

I feel that two separate [sp] communities will end up in more problems than we realize [sp]. There is not a good enough reason to not stay together as one. I feel there will be less working together and more hurt feelings. We need to work together as one, remembering why we are one community and why we attend church in the first place. Not people trying to always be controlling everything. If it's not broke don't fix it. We need to stop make problems put our priorities together our faith, our God, our church, and our families. Just be happy, not always having something to worry about. (411)

I want to continue attending both churches & strongly feel we should stay as we are . (693)

I feel you are taking away the true church we Greeks strived to build & we all committed our souls and life for this great Greek community, Holy Trinity. (1202)

It seems to me if Prophet Elias has reached maturity, they are acting very childish. If they still want the support of Holy Trinity, they still have some growing to do. (red number stamp partially blaCK-inked) 'If the Bishop tries to split t he community I Will not support the church financially. I will attend another church (Orthodox). (1020)

Transcriber's note:
I saw no reason to re-type responses It 1235, 1002, 726, 820, 328, 1004,341, 326, 28, since they were legible enough to read.

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