I Am Confused!

December 5, 2009

Which Father Michael, as my spiritual leader and Proistamenos here at Prophet Elias Church, am I to believe?

Is he the one who greets me with embraces and pecks to my cheeks, seeks me out in a crowd of people to congratulate me on my Name Day, and tells me congratulations for being a candidate for the Parish Council. Or, is he the one who doesn’t have the courtesy to call me and discuss his concerns as to my candidacy for the Parish Council, but for two years in a row sends me a registered letter stating I am not eligible to be on the Parish Council because I have written on the Blog.

I thought we lived in America where Free Speech was a right.

- Jim Kastanis

The Blog Has Arrived!

The Blog has finally arrived; see letters from the priests to the “denied.” According to the local clergy the Metropolitan now does not like it either.

In view of the spurious reasons for the disqualification of Kastanis, Gamvroulas, and Sakellariou, is there any other conclusion than:

This Proistameno Must Go. The sooner the better.

Welcome to 12th Century Christianity.
What can we expect next? Inquisition trials?

Best wishes for the Holiday Season,

Nick J. Colessides

P.S. From the sublime to the ridiculous!

Qualified Last Year; Disqualified This Year?

Mendacity Continues Unabated

I couldn't make it the other night to the General Assembly.

No, I haven't given up. I just was not able, at what should be a time of somber reflection and anticipation of the joyous holiday to come, to endure yet another general assembly of platitudes, excuses, blatant dissembling and parliamentary maneuverings further designed to ensure such vapid governance. That this situation continues is baffling and sad.

It is clear that today's clergy, lower and higher, continues to hold the Greek Orthodox laity hostage. Complain too much and you cannot serve on the Parish Council. Have kids in church activities? They are held hostage too. Any failure, real or perceived, to strictly conform, and even our kids face criticism, humiliation and ostracism.

Then, there is the question of money - which we are continuously assured (with incomplete data at every assembly) is coming in fabulously. Yet the congregation is vilified by its clergy for spending on frivolous secular pursuits, instead of handing it over with no questions asked or allowed.

We continue to be expected to check our minds at the door, close our mouths and open our wallets. We have all lived in this valley long enough to have no trouble in guessing who we're being asked to resemble on all counts.

The height of insult, once again, to what little discernment we're allowed to maintain, is that our Proistamenos-of-Prophet Elias-only declared that this blog is: a) responsible for any and all rifts in our community; b) the reason we have two proistamenoi (this is a new one!); and, c) the work of the devil.

In the first place, the rifts in this community began in earnest several years before this blog was established. The major rift began with our Metropolitan's disbanding of an elected Parish Council in 2002, whereby he literally pitted family members and friends against each other within the community.

The rifts continued with our Proistamenos' (then leader of both church communities) desire to control absolutely, so much so that he caused members to be either barred from serving on the Parish Council, or to be sanctioned and expelled from it. The blog began because of these circumstances; it certainly did not precede them.

Further rifts occurred due to the clergy's clear intent to follow Metropolitan Isaiah's specifically expressed desire (several times and in writing prior to October 2007 when he made it official insofar as having two proistamenoi) to split this community into two parishes. There is no ambiguity here. There is PLENTY of prior evidence to this fact, including His Eminence's labeling this community as having committed spiritual polygamy in a letter to the community in December 2007. Contending that the blog caused the appointment of two Proistamenoi is utter nonsense.

As for declaring this blog to be the work of the devil, this ruse is an historical condemnation issued by every despot from time immemorial, in the ecclesiastical realm or otherwise, who lacks the ability or the desire to lead with reason, compassion and love.

- Barbara Billinis Colessides

HAPPY THANKSGIVING

Wishing everyone a happy and safe Thanksgiving.

TOCB Moderators

Pavilion Update

Two years have passed since we were assured by our parish council that the pavilion would be completed by September 2007. To date, we await completion of the pavilion in spite of assurances made that "the remaining funds to complete the project will be in hand and collected by the time the materials are delivered." How much has actually been spent on this project and how much more will be spent?

We are including the actual document issued by the parish council in 2007 for your review. If what is stated above and in the document is true, why are monies still being solicited for this project? It seems that this is one in a long line of pet projects of the proistameno of Prophet Elias only.

If this is in fact one of the many pet projects of the proistameno of Prophet Elias only, why doesn't our parish council president along with the other elected and/or hand picked parish council members, inform the proistameno of Prophet Elias only that there are far more pressing needs?

Click on the document and make your own conclusions.

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General Assembly

As the fall general assembly approaches, there are existing issues in our community that must be addressed. In addition to the election of the Board of Auditors, an issue avoided by recent past general assemblies yet required by the UPR, the following matters must be addressed openly and honestly:

• Finances: Through the first 11 months of this year (including the spring general assembly) we have not been afforded the courtesy of seeing a statement disclosing all community financial accounts. The community's request for full disclosure and transparency in all financial matters including the "special" accounts used in the remodel of Prophet Elias and the pavilion is long overdue. These "special" accounts require the same transparency even though our president has stated the monies are "donated." The community deserves an accounting of how the money was spent without needing to know who donated what.
• Personnel: Who is in charge? Is it the Operations Manager or the Proistameno of Prophet Elias only? The recent release of a non clergy staff member should have been the decision of the Operations Manager in conjunction with the Parish Council and not the Proistameno of Prophet Elias only. It is unthinkable that the Proistameno of Prophet Elias only would need to take time away from focusing on the spiritual matters of the community and waste it with matters that can easily be resolved by the Parish Council and the Operations Manager.
  
• Elections: How many candidates will the Proistameno of Prophet Elias only disqualify this year? His pattern has been to disqualify those who he believes do not agree with him and can't manipulate. His reasons for disqualifying are without merit and endless. He believes that as members of this community we are incapable of thinking and acting in the best interest of our church. Time will tell if he has realized his past mistakes.
  
• Old and New Business: Why were these items removed from the general assembly agenda? Bring them back and allow the voice of the people to be heard.
  

The general assembly is a time when the people have an opportunity to express their concerns and opinions. Hopefully the chair of the upcoming assembly will not follow the tactics of previous chairs (our president) by limiting or shutting down discussion. Let the voice of the people be heard.

Board of Auditors?

One year ago at the fall General Assembly, a request was made from the floor to appoint a Board of Auditors as Required by the Metropolis of Denver in the Administrative Guidelines for Parish Council Elections. (www.denver.goarch.org/protocols/2008-Protocols/protocol-08-24-enc-1.pdf) Our parish council president, who was also meeting chair, deferred action to the spring general assembly. This done despite the Administrative Guidelines which require action at the last general assembly preceding an election. Seated and silent was the proistameno of Prophet Elias only who failed to intercede and correct the misstep and follow the Administrative Guidelines of this Metropolis.

Be that as it may, the spring general assembly was held and again the issue was brought to the floor. After promising to discuss this important matter in the spring, our parish council president who was again meeting chair, delayed discussion to the fall general assembly. Our president/chair is either voluntarily misinformed or purposely avoiding the issue for reasons only known to him and the proistameno of Prophet Elias only.

The establishment of a Board of Auditors is required by the Metropolis in order for election results to be ratified. Since no Board of Auditors has been elected as required, how have the elections been ratified by the Metropolitan? Could it be that he is under the false impression that all requirements have been followed? If he is under this false impression, who is it that has deceived him? Questions that can only be answered by those providing the answers.

One full year later with still no action being taken, we believe our parish council and proistameno of Prophet Elias only will finally rectify this error. The text from the Metropolis of Denver regarding this matter reads as follows:

VI. Board of Auditors

1. The Board of Auditors shall consist of at least three parishioners none of whom are members of the Parish Council. The Board of Auditors shall be elected at the last Parish Assembly preceding an election from among those who have not served on the Parish Council for the year being audited and who are not candidates for election to the Parish Council. The Board of Auditors shall have the financial competency to properly execute its responsibilities. (2005 UPR Article 33, Section 1)

2. The Board of Auditors shall audit financial records of the prior year and prepare a report of such audit for presentation to the Parish Assembly. After review by the Parish Assembly, the Parish Council shall transmit copies of the final audit to the respective Hierarch and the Archdiocese. (2005 UPR Article 33, Section 2)

3. A vacancy on the Board of Auditors shall be filled by the Parish Council by electing a successor therefore from amongst the parishioners of the Parish in good standing for the unexpired portion of the term of such vacancy. (2005 UPR Article 33, Section 3)

4. The Board of Auditors is dissolved upon submission of their report to the Parish Council, and the acceptance of that report by the Parish Council.

We ask that those who preach the following of Guidelines and UPR's practice what they preach.

Interesting Article

In their summer 2009 newsletter, Church Mutual Insurance Company printed an article titled, "A financial pandemic is sweeping the country." The article lists warning signs churches could look for that might indicate financial impropriety. Two of these signs deserve consideration.

Excuses to avoid financial audit - If memory serves, the past two general assemblies contained some discussion regarding an audit. The assembly chair delayed discussion each time moving it to the "next meeting" effectively avoiding the topic. According to the UPR's, each year the community is to nominate, from the floor of the general assembly, members of the community to serve on the audit committee. When was this last done and what were the results of their audit? In addition, paperwork required for parish council election ratification includes a list of the members of the audit committee. If there have been no nominations, how could paperwork have been honestly submitted and elections ratified?

Failure to provide financial reports at meetings - While spreadsheets are regularly provided listing account balances we never seem to receive detailed expense reports (including invoices) of the restricted accounts or of the festival account. So much work has been done at Prophet Elias yet no detailed invoices have ever been presented to the community. Our festival expends over $500,000 yet we never see detailed invoices.

We are asked to be active in our community while at the same time receive only limited information. The time has come to see that an audit committee is appointed as required by the UPR. It is time to see detailed expense reports (including invoices) so we can be truly informed. We can no longer settle for the second class citizenship that has been lorded upon us.

His Pet Projects Continue

Congratulations to the organizers of the Taste of Greece on another successful event.

Conspicuously absent from this community wide event was the Proistamenos of Prophet Elias only who had a "prior engagement". These "prior engagements" seem to pop up with events taking place at Holy Trinity. According to his "inner circle", instead of having an egalitarian attitude, the Proistameno of Prophet Elias only "hates going down there". Isn't it ironic then that he would send his emissary to request that this year's proceeds be earmarked to purchase tables for the pavilion.

There seem to be more imperative needs at BOTH churches (dome at Prophet Elias and classrooms at Holy Trinity) than tables for a pavilion that was supposed to be completed by monies already donated. It would seem that if one were to request proceeds from an event for one of their pet projects, the least they could do is attend the event "για τα ματια του κοσμου"

Need we remind the Proistameno of Prophet Elias only that the funds generated from this community that pay his salary come from BOTH churches. We only hope that his actions aren't an attempt to resurrect the long dead issue of needing two separate communities. Maybe another look at the letter from the Metropolitan regarding this issue will refresh his memory.

Please support a worthy cause!

Saturday August 15^th, Prophet Elias Gym Social Hour 6:30 Dinner 7:30

APPETIZERS, DINNER, DESSERT, DANCING.

Ticket prices: $35 for adults; $25 for college - 13 years of age; $15 for children 12 and under. Purchase tickets at Prophet Elias and Holy Trinity, or CONTACT:

Christine Chachas (775) 293-0416

Megan Curtis (801) 577-6269

Jason Oneida (801) 971-7910 (corrected number)

All proceeds generated will benefit Jennifer Hardwick and her family: Jennifer is a youth from our own community who was involved in a horrific car accident and is still receiving treatments.

Delicious appetizers, lamb dinner, cash beer and wine bar and an assortment of Greek sweets. The OPA dancers will perform.

DJ “V” will be playing Greek hits and classics all night for your listening and dancing pleasure.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU THERE!!!

Whom Do We Believe?

Is there any doubt that there is discord in the community and questionable leadership by our clergy and parish council? 

At the spring general assembly we were told the new Iconostasis at Prophet Elias was approved by the community and the Metropolitan. A member of the community questioned this and stated he would call the Metropolitan personally that very evening. The metropolitan was called that evening at his home at 11:00 p.m. The Metropolitan said he knew nothing about a new Iconostasis or giving approval of one. The Metropolitan celebrated a liturgy at Prophet Elias on the Saturday before Palm Sunday and Vespers on the evening of Palm Sunday.

Whom do we believe? The Parish Council, the Metropolitan or the parishioner who called the Metropolitan personally?

- Jim Kastanis

Rollback 8

TOCB Editors' Note: Throughout these "rollback" responses there are numerous [sp] references noted by the original compilers of the parishioner responses. Often the reference is itself not correct - that is, spelling or grammatical errors are noted where there are none. The TOCB editors did not add these references in any of these responses.

Responses to HT/PE Survey: Comments Attending HT 1 and 2 of 10

Please do not separate our community this way - We have been one since the founding of our communities. Whose [sp] crazy idea is this? Most of us have been friends since birth splitting would change alliances/friendships-lay the groundwork for unhealthy competition, etc. (67)

I would like more English in the Service to make the church more friendly to all Orthodox people. (336)

The use of both churches as is, works well for many reasons, For many who regularly go to church downtown, or had, Prophet Elias offers a choice for those who can't make it up the stairs, parking, etc... again an option, (1044)

Quoting the former Archbishop, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." There are numerous issues that should be clarified prior to any actions in splitting our church. Hopefully, this will be discussed during the next General Assembly meeting. Thank you. (850)

I support the current status only if Father Michael is transferred from here. If not I would like to split. (394)

After reading both views it seems to me that those for the split want to keep the help and support of the other church only where they think they will need it. So if we are going to keep a number of things together (dance groups, sports leagues, Saint Sophia School) why not just I have things the way they are .(231)

Quit fightingll This is a CHURCH, remember? (88)

Since Father Michael [sp] was assigned to our community, he has caused nothing but troubles. He's [sp] constantly telling you he will do what you ask him and he does the opposite. It is a great trait of his, therefore you can never trust him. We have the greatest community with two churches under one parish; it has worked for 38 years. (52)

We attend Holy Trinity primarily, however when our child attends liturgy with St. Sophia School, we will attend PE. It's [sp] too bad we have so much politics & bad feelings amongst member. It's [sp] actually embarrassing all the problems we're having. Two parishes will cause further separation [sp] & somewhat competition which is not what God teaches or desires. (222)

The "buildings" don't make the "parish"! The "people" make the "parish" (community)! Don't let families & koumbari be broken apart by dividing the "parish"! Please!! (44)

As I think about this current affliction plaguing our Greek Orthodox community, I can not help recall the following quotation by not only one of America's greatest leaders but by Apostle Matthew as well. "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand." It is sad that a community started 100 years ago has come to a point where we no longer see each other as brother and sister. It was this Hellenic bond 100 years ago that kept us as a family. Now through the evil workings of greed and power, this bond is to be destroyed. Shame should be felt by those who have taken up the tools of Satan to destroy the house of God. It might seem that this is no great deal to separate [spl the churches, but this is where it all begins. Slowly over time we change this and we change that and before long we no longer know who we are, for our identity a Greek Orthodox Christians will surely be lost in time. Shame to all of you that have transgressed against the house of God! (256)

I think we as a community should consider breaking away from the archdiocese and re-organize our parishes with new priests that we go out and harvest, then elect a new un-biased board and continue with our spiritual journey. (1242)

Although I primarily attend services at H.T., I still go to P.E. for some services and several activities. I firmly support keeping the current status of two churches in one community. It offers more opportunities for everyone. (435)

In a city surrounded by a homogeneous religious clan, I can see little to be accomplished in splitting a now homogeneous culture (we Hellenes) and making it more divisive, which I think will happen. The only reason for such a divisive action would be some desirable economic benefit to the Greek community. By referring to this as "two independent" communities makes it even less savory, less comraderly [sp), less justifiable. (506)

Despite statements that he will not split the community, Bishop Isaiah continues his relentless pursuit of just that. He has told us we live in polygamy and that some of our members are "money mongers ." These are not the words of a spiritual leader concerned for the members of this church. They are the words of someone determined to split this community in order to obtain more money for his endeavors. In support of his efforts he has sent Father Michael as the instrument of his wishes. Even a blind man can see what's going on. Just as clear is what happens when separate parishes are established within the same community; competition and animosity. We have only to look to Denver and the strained relationship between the Cathedral and St. Katherine's to document this. Prophet Elias is not a daughter church but rather an equal "sister" and should remain a such. Those pushing for a split should seek their own property and build their [sp] own church if they are so dissatisfied, but they have no right to take what our families established nearly 40 years ago. Finally, the Parish Council needs to send a clear message back to Denver by reversing the split of the Philoptochos and refusing the establishment of separate "head priests" at each church. Just so no one accuses me of hiding behind anonymity, I am signing this. (Philip A. Kithas) (397)

Our community requires growth and consolidation of resources to meet the increasing demands of operational challenges, programs and services. Separation will only further diminish overall financial support and greatly exacerbate already strained relationships between parishioners, resulting from this proposition. Based on the arguments put forth in the position papers, there is a clear need for administrative and organizational review and restructure, but splitting the community is not the answer. (355)

Something New in the Spring Air: WHO Is Now A (VOTING) "Member"???

OFFICIAL NOTICE
SPRING GENERAL ASSEMBLY
MONDAY, MAY 18
PROPHET ELIAS
6:30 PM

From time to time, questions arise concerning membership status in our parish. First and foremost we are "members" of the Church by virtue of the Mystery of Baptism and Chrismation. We remain "members" by our spiritual struggle, by our participation in the Holy Mysteries, and by our association with the local parish.

"Members in good standing" is an administrative distinction limited to determining those "members" of the Church (as described above) who are afforded an opportunity to vote regarding certain parish administrative matters. Such "voting membership" presupposes being a member of the Church sacramentally, and additionally involves having demonstrated a Stewardship involvement in the parish.

Since both membership by Baptism and Chrismation in the Church as well as "membership in good standing" according to financial stewardship are spiritual matters--insofar as both reflect one's responsibility to God--it is ultimately the proistamenos as the head of the parish and as spiritual father of the members of that parish who can make a definitive determination in this regard concerning the status of his members.

- The Messenger, May/June 2009

Let's see if we can discover certain patterns here:

• First, we have hierarchs dismissing and disbanding properly elected boards and/or board members for a variety of flimsy and self-serving reasons.


• Then we have hierarchs and proistamenoi, assisted by the stewards on the Parish Council, stifling open discussion and negating or ignoring votes from various general assemblies in this city. They have together relegated the laity to those "who are afforded an opportunity to vote regarding certain parish administrative matters." (emphasis added)


• These actions have been followed by several recent examples of having the proistamenoi in this community preclude stewards -- baptized, chrismated, and having served their Church faithfully for decades -- from even running for the parish council.


• And NOW, we have proistamenoi discussing "members" and what defines "membership". The concluding statement is that they (singly, or in tandem? since this is still, supposedly, one community) "as the head of the parish and as spiritual father of the members of that parish who can make a definitive determination in this regard concerning the status of his members." (emphasis added)
  

Is it terribly difficult to see where these actions and pronouncements are leading us?

- Barbara Billinis Colessides

Rollback 7

Moderators Note: TOCB has advocated the unity of this community and looks to return to one Proistameno and one Philoptochos which should have occurred upon the receipt of the Metropolitan's letter announcing there would be no split. We roll back the clock to the November 2007 General Assembly where the much heralded survey results were announced. The survey responses posted are done so as they were received. TOCB has not edited or altered the survey responses.

Responses to HT/PE Survey Attending Both (6 and 7 of 8)

I do not believe in the concept of having two independent communities. This community was established with two churches & one community We had the approval of the Archbishop who indicated at the time P.E. was established & in 1992 that we were to remain one community. The people that believe we are committing spiritual polygamy if they choose should begin raising their own fund to establish a new church of its own. Our forefathers worked & donated long hard hours to establish the community we have today. I would shudder [sp] if they knew their hard work & dedication was for nothing. I used to attend both churches (H.T. & P.E) on a regular basis; however, I stopped attending P.E. because I went to church to pray. I did not attend church to be given a lecture every Sunday. (642)

The level of incompetence and blatant lying that exists especially from Kouremetis is mind numbing. It is a shame that we are in this situation. Kouremetis must leave. (246)

Πρεπει να σταματησουν τα ψευματα. Προπαντως ο Παπα Μιχαλης. Μεγαλη ντροπη (247)

If our current church leaders & priests & board members can not provide for our community then they need to be changed. (57)

I enjoy attending both churches and support all of our priests. (413)

I can see no value in anything that divides a religious community, specially in Utah. Jesus did not preach to this group or that group of people but to ALL people! It should never matter WHERE you worship -but what's important is -that you attend worship. Why are we spending energy on dividing us -instead of putting the energy to a better use -of a united group. Only a Utahn [sp} born and reared here really know[s] how hard it is to attend school, work, date and socialize but keep your own faith without the L.D. S. trying to convert you or your family; why do you think th L.D.S church began to have missionaries in 1970 in Utah? (I don't think Father Michael sees/knows this is a threat but I see it daily in my profession.) Many Orthodox Christians have been converted -please let's not have any discord in our beautiful religion -people should be able to attend the church of their choice. (585)

I believe it would be a big mistake to separate [sp] the2 churches. There is already competition between the 2 philoptochos groups. (687)

Please don't change! What about our youth -what are we teaching them? How to not get along? The Festival was bigger and better than ever - Don't ruin it! We get along great here -Please don't change anything! (762)

Maintaining current status allows the retention of community and resources. (ALEKA STAMP)

Because I am in a care center but I have attended both churches. (ALEKA STAMP)

Our churches should remain united as the Greek Orthodox Community of Greater Salt Lake. A split would be exactly like a divorce, never equal and always bitter. Once broken any unity is fractured forever. (4)


Those who want separate churches are free to find property and build their own church. The door is open, don't let it hit you on the way out. (297)

We live in a very unique city where I believe the stronger we are united the better - especially with the influence of the LDS church. I would like to see our community stay as it is -united working together. support both churches. I do not have any children yet I believe and financially support both areas because I believe in the common good of all of the parishioners. With that in mind, I donate to support all of things & items that are needed at both churches... because I feel all of us are one community. (405)

It was quite appropriate that the dissemination of this survey coincided with OXI day I say:

OXI to the surveyors. Feed my sheep the Lord said not survey them;
OXI to the propagandists providing information only after formulating their "spin";
OXI to the crypto-papists trying to impose clericalism upon the community and church;
OXI to those pitting family against family and brother against brother;
OXI to the carpetbaggers sowing the seeds of discord;
OXI to the hypocrites quoting canons in one breath while violating in another;
OXI to the split!l (1115)

We are one community with 2 places to worship. (1175)

It is one Greek Orthodox church in the Salt Lake Valley -no matter how many cathedrals. (1233)

I believe it is imperative to keep this community as one. Living in Utah this topic would not even be brought up, until we have enough people to support and attend 5-6 churches not barely 2. This topic is pushing people away from our community, not making us stronger in any way. Families in this community have mernber[s] attending both churches and friends that attend both churches. By separating [sp] the parish people are forced to make a choice of where they attend. Thus when a baptism or marriage occurs at one or the other church people will not feel the welcome -ness that they feel today. I believe that at least 2 generations will have to pass for the feelings to subside. If we focus on what our church in intended [sp] to saving souls people will give and our parish will flourish. But if we continue to politic we will have nothing. (409)

I feel that two separate [sp] communities will end up in more problems than we realize [sp]. There is not a good enough reason to not stay together as one. I feel there will be less working together and more hurt feelings. We need to work together as one, remembering why we are one community and why we attend church in the first place. Not people trying to always be controlling everything. If it's not broke don't fix it. We need to stop make problems put our priorities together our faith, our God, our church, and our families. Just be happy, not always having something to worry about. (411)

I want to continue attending both churches & strongly feel we should stay as we are . (693)

I feel you are taking away the true church we Greeks strived to build & we all committed our souls and life for this great Greek community, Holy Trinity. (1202)

It seems to me if Prophet Elias has reached maturity, they are acting very childish. If they still want the support of Holy Trinity, they still have some growing to do. (red number stamp partially blaCK-inked) 'If the Bishop tries to split t he community I Will not support the church financially. I will attend another church (Orthodox). (1020)

Transcriber's note:
I saw no reason to re-type responses It 1235, 1002, 726, 820, 328, 1004,341, 326, 28, since they were legible enough to read.

Begging the Question …

"I, (name) do solemnly affirm that I will uphold the dogmas, teachings, traditions, holy canons, discipline, worship and moral principles of the Greek Orthodox Church, as well as the Charter and Regulations of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and that I will fulfill faithfully and sincerely the duties and obligations required of a member of the Parish Council. So help me God."


Let’s see if we understand this latest situation:

• We have been informed recently and somewhat suddenly that a parish council member has decided to resign.
  
  
• This parish council member was appointed to serve on the replacement board after Metropolitan Isaiah disbanded an elected board in this community in 2002; since then he has stood for election and taken the oath as a parish council member several times.
  
  
• The stated reason for the resignation is due to disagreement “with the process and content of the Charter that [the]…Affirmation of Office” requires.

Some pertinent issues arise:

• The council member in question was deemed worthy by our clergy to serve, despite being obviously conflicted as to his oath, and yet the clergy and the Metropolitan ratified his candidacy and election during the past seven years.
  
  
• Curiously, another parish council member was dismissed in 2007; one of the reasons given was behavior deemed by the clergy and hierarchy to be inconsistent with the oath administered to elected parish council members.
  
  
• Several willing and qualified candidates in recent times have been presumed by our clergy to be ineligible to even stand for election, and were described by our Proistamenoi as being incapable of taking that same oath.
  

Isn't there a double standard here?

Prevarication - is it a sin when committed by the clergy?

(All of us are judged by our own deeds.)

The date is March 19, 2009. It is approximately noon. A parishioner is pulling out of a parking space at St. Sophia’s side of the Prophet Elias parking lot. About 40 feet away Fr. Michael is driving in front of the church going towards the south exit of the parking lot. As Fr. Michael is signaling to turn left at the south exit of the lot, the parishioner calls Fr. Michael on his cell phone and asks to talk to him about a religious/community-related matter.

His response is verbatim as follows: “I cannot talk to you right now; I am at the University Hospital visiting a patient.” A great response ... if it only were true.

While he is giving the above response, the parishioner is in a car, only 40-50 feet behind him at the Prophet Elias church parking lot. The parishioner is left speechless in the car. Fr. Michael drives away happy that his work for God is done right again.

Άραγες ο σκοπός αγιάζει τα μέσα?
Άλλοι που ξέρουνε λένε οτι δεν είναι η πρώτη φορά
Παράδειγμα προς μίμησιν?

Should we as parishioners emulate his example?

This Proistamenos Must Go (TPMG).

Kalo Pascha,

Nick J. Colessides

Local News

In an effort to keep our community informed, TOCB has learned of the upcoming visit of His Eminence Metropolitan Isaiah on the weekend of April 11 and 12. Details of his visit will be announced to the community by our assigned clergy on Sunday, April 4.

TOCB was saddened to learn of the layoff of a staff member. In reviewing the daily cost of salaries paid by our community, we offer the following: clergy salaries cost $1090 per day, office support staff(for 2) salaries cost $299 per day. The total saving to the community of the recent layoff is $87 per day. In light of the figures at hand, this seems to make little impact on the budget but a large impact on an individual's life.

Our Stewardship Co-Chairpersons, wrote in the March/April Messenger "We are pleased to inform you that as of January 31, 2009 the stewardship commitments of our community have already surpassed our prior year commitments to date." If this is actually the case, why the layoff? Why this layoff two weeks before Pascha? Just wondering. Maybe the letter we will soon receive will answer these and other questions.

Rollback 6

Moderators Note: TOCB has advocated the unity of this community and looks to return to one Proistameno and one Philoptochos which should have occurred upon the receipt of the Metropolitan's letter announcing there would be no split. We roll back the clock to the November 2007 General Assembly where the much heralded survey results were announced. The survey responses posted are done so as they were received. TOCB has not edited or altered the survey responses.

Responses to HT/PE Survey: (Attending both) 5 of 8

I am saddened to see that a call to split our churches is due to money. I would like our community to remain united like ONE glorious [?] pie cut in half. Each piece contributing to the other spiritually to make a whole. The monies raised should be divided based on critically defined criteria important to both churches in an honest & equal way. We are ancestors of scholars, we are scholars ourselves and we should be able to work this out without crumbling in two. Remaining as one will help our children to live through the discriminations they face unique to this state. I also feel that we desperately [sp] need to add to our staff a paid youth director. One that would coordinate both churches keeping them together & constructing their faith as future parishioners. So my vote? Mazi (together) (870)

Those few separatists who wish to see things done a new or different way may go and start a new 3rd church, with an independent parish council. They should do so however with their own funds, rather than trying to "steal" one of the churches from our one, united parish!!! (1241)

Granted, we -Salt Lake City Community-are an exception, however, our structure is an exception that has worked and worked in an exemplary way for over 40 years! Thus we should not be singled out as an exception but rather as a stellar example of just how well this exceptional concept and Greeks can work & live together. It is only in the operation of this community under Father Michael wherein this structural issue has become an issue that is creating division and disharmony among hundreds of families whose members and ancestors have always been [sp] united. Shouldn't this issue -the cause-also be explored? Why are priests and bishops so involved in the secular and business operations of the church anyway - especially when it consumes their time more than their "priestly duties" of meeting the spiritual needs of their flock? If you disagre -ask some members why they are moving away from our church & community. Ask the youth why youth are not involved. Ask members who have faced "troubles" of been sick if the priests have called or visited them. Ask why a succesful, exceptional community has suddenly -under one realm begun splitting in non-Christian ways which will last--split or no-split of the churches!! Investigate cause, not effect! (163)

Dividing the two churches into independent communities will do nothing more than to "pit" the two churches along with family and friends against one another. (1146)

I can't see what this great community of ours is going to gain by splitting out two churches. Metropolitan Isaiah, Father Kouremetis, a handful of converts along with a confused group of parishioners who've never known how or where they want to worship, want to make our church something it is not. It will be best for all of us if these people go and build a church to their liking, maybe something more vanilla and less traditional and biblical. I envision something more like a "wardhouse"! (1186)

We have been betrayed by our own parish council for allowing the few to cause such discord in our parish. (1301)

Rollback 5

Moderators Note: TOCB has advocated the unity of this community and looks to return to one Proistameno and one Philoptochos which should have occurred upon the receipt of the Metropolitan's letter announcing there would be no split. We roll back the clock to the November 2007 General Assembly where the much heralded survey results were announced. The survey responses posted are done so as they were received. TOCB has not edited or altered the survey responses.


Responses to HT/PE Survey: (Attending Both) l of 8


I attend Prophet Elias and Holy Trinity also. I like having the option to attend either church. (survey # on cover letter; disconnected)


I feel comfortable attending either church. I think most people feel the same way. Why split us up? Splitting up would create many problems. (265)


Get rid of the two time keeping interior decorating pimps who claim to be priests...and if Isaiah pulls any stunts we'll sue his ass, like everyone else. (383)


To divide the churches would be a HUGE mistake!! We're happy the way is now-divided we FALL united we STAND!!! (505)


I support the current status of two churches. If separated it would cause a lot of friction & hostility between churches & members within the community. It's [sp] been this way all these years, let's not change it now-(318)


(Addressing question #2: This Question is irrelevant) There is a procedure for splitting this community that is utterly and completely NOT part of this survey, regardless of the results. (73)

Shame on those who want to split our churches (1230)


We have come so far in the past 102 years as one Greek Orthodox community. With the added members who are not of Greek heritage, needs change. We have been able to handle the language issue to satisfy the majority of parishioners. The two churches don't have to think alike on all topics. Both sides are equally represented. Keep the status quo. (124)


Majority of time is spent at Prophet Elias. I believe thing appear to be well as they are, but honestly I don't care regarding the outcome. (1174)


What we have may not be perfect but it works! Don't mess it up with this idea of "two communities is better" message. If there are families that want separation [sp] let them start their [sp] own separate [sp] church. I'll give them the first $500 to get started! (622)


There is no really good reason to have two separate churches so why change. Wait until the founders of P.E. have passed on and consider this in the future. There are too many people who do not want this to happen. So why cause problems. It will cause more than a physical split. It will be spiritual as well.(350)


Holy Trinity and Prophet Elias were build as one community, and should stay. Those who want to an other community build their own. (319)


The beauty of attending church in both Holy Trinity and Prophet Elias is: you go wher there is a memorial service you would like to attend, or there is a special event such as Memorial Day, Museum (moderator note: response continued below)


Responses to HT/PE Survey; (Attending both) 2 of 8


lunch/lecture activity. Also you interact with the people of both churches and that promotes friendship, fellowship and help with Philoptochos activities. There are quite a few of us who do help in both churches. (368)


I don't think the Orthodox community in the Salt Lake Valley is large enough to have two separate parishes. (5)


This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Do something constructive instead of destructive. (680)


Splitting the community for a small fraction of members will be huge mistake. It will cause separation & distance rather than unity. We need to stay strong and act as ONE. I feel strongly about this subject, and support the current status! (976)


This entire episode is the saddest chapter in our parish history. "Christian Fellowship" is not occurring at P.E. now-why expect it to by splitting this parish? Many people are now attending H.T. & many more will. Also -have you seen attendance at P.E. lately? You are driving people AWAY from our church, not towards it. Leave our parish alone. (436)


I am very disappointed in the board allowing this to happen to us. We have been one community for years and have no problems. Look what happened to the Philoptochos, since the split, nothing but trouble. I'm sure that's going to happen with the split of these two churches. We were told that we would vote on the matter, but know we are taking a survey, what a joke, we have no say in the matter, it's a done deal, you're [sp] just trying to cover up. I'm very disappointed with Bishop Isaiah and FatherMichael; they have betrayed us. Look at the problems Denver has had since they split. (669)


Fr. Mike hasn't or doesn't care about anybody or anyone unless they have money! Bottom line he's overpaid!!! (940)


I would like to attend either church. I grew up going to Holy Trinity and would hate not being able to still go there. I also like going to Prophet Elias it is close to me. I would hate to see the churches divided as I love both churches! What about the Greek Festival, the apartments & parking lots. Which church would profit from these? (695)


I feel our church needs the strength it gets from having one parish unified in Salt Lake. We do not provide enough outreach to our community as it is and we lose people at the college level. A unified parish gives us strength. (1152)


I believe that this survey is a total sham. The real reasons are not even mentioned, As for the parish council being overworked, no one is forced to run for office, If they feel overworked they can resign. Others will be happy to serve. The bottom line is the entire situation is about a few who want to ontrol the money and minimize or eliminate the "Greek" aspect of our parish. (1023)


Responses to HT/PE Survey: (Attending both)/3 of 8


Have them build one on their own. (446)


Why is separating the churches even happening, when it is obvious the majority of the community is against it? Do our comments really matter? We know it is a done deal! Don't patronize us!!! (456)


United we stand. Divided we fall. (979)


I support very strongly the status of the two churches in one community (1188)


I detest a split of our churches. Our two priests have been split up. Leave is as is. Do us all a favor and split up Isaiah and that would be fine. (479)


(Addressing question #2: Irrelevant) If more than one or two P.C. [parish council) members had BOTHERED to attend the October 28 event at Holy Trinity, you might have learned the meaning of the word "OXI"! (604)


The Separatists have not provided sufficient evidence to sustain two separate churches. The demographics of the "faithful" are changing, i.e. the PE area originally had appeal as a "bedroom community." Now this is rapidly changing. Expansion is county-wide, However, we still do not have the financial means to sustain two different churches. Costs continue to rise. The Greek Festival, which attracts 40-50,000 attendees now has probably reached its peak, In the eye of the non-Greek community --the Festival is one of the best known activities of the Greater Greek Orthodox church. To split this into two parts would be rmost harmful. In a few words; check with other Greek communities -such as Denver -you will find animosity between families, friends & relatives. We say that we have 1,000 families -yet the percentage of donations, memberships, etc. remains relatively the same! The separatists should come up with actual financial projections to justify this movement. Where will its membership come from? Who will cover the costs of PE which is built on fragile (large water table ground) which has already required expensive maintenance? The dome for instance -requires immediate (and expensive) repair. Priests' salaries are rising faster than inflation. A new priest will be faced with many challenges. And-being a scarce commodity, will seek more & more higher salaries. Why not prepare for a 7-man (and woman) indpendent committee -give them an adequate budget a 5-year term & let the committee come up with recommendations, (102 )


This is absolutely ridiculous! Why is this "just" a survey? Why is it not a ballot? Are we afraid of "losing" this vote unexpectedly, just like the vote was "lost" in February at the SGA? Then what do you do, invalidate the election? Not proceed with the will of the people. 72% of the people in attendance at the largest general assembly of our community ever voted to proceed with a course of action at that time. Why are we not proceeding? How is it that that action was "uncanonical"? (1213)


Without a super-majority approval of any issue, especially of this magnitude, we should never pass a proposed plan. I do believe this parish has needs that will someday warrant either another location or revisiting this issue. That being said, we should begin to anticipate future needs and certain growth


Responses to HT/PE Survey: (Attending both 4 of 8)


TODAY! Our parish council has no plan for 5-10-15 years in the future. A committee is needed, with several p.c. members on it at all times, that reports at EVERY GENERAL ASSEMBLY (I remember such discussions 40 years ago). Please consider keeping these issues alive and not letting them slip away only to be re-visited 5 years from now. Note: I feel that the proposal of splitting our parish has some merit; that perhaps more individuals would care to be involved with the goings on of our church. As it stands, many parishioners are tired of the politics and egos involved and would welcome change in the status quo. This does not require splitting the parish. Our needs today differ from those of our ancestors. Change, when anticipated, can lead to our benefit and is inevitable. (1092)


I also strongly believe that since are one community we should only have one & only one proistamenos!(649)


Things work beautifully the way they are now. Why you want to split the community and alienate the parishioners from each other-[?] (705)


I recommend that you get rid of the Priest & the Bishop, elect a board who thoroughly operates for the parishioners --in order to have continuity with Holy Trinity & Prophet Elias. Legaily, Holy Trinity built & owns Prophet Elias. Utah has a great deal of land. You want a new church? Build one (881)


We must remain as one community with two churches as originally implemented. Prophet Elias was meant (sp) to serve the overflow of Holy Trinity and never a child of Holy Trinity. Two churches of equal status and not one subordinate to the other. Prophet Elias as a child of Holy Trinity is nonsense. Families of the community should be able to worship at either church with one head priest. As to the other specific issues stated:1.Increasing complex structural and operational changes. The board has handled these problems well for the last 40 years. The problems arise when CLERGY get involved in secular matters rather than sticking to religious matters. 2.If the current status of two churches under one community is causing competition [sp] between Holy Trinity and Prophet Elias, why wouldn't one youth program for the community splitting cause competition? 3.The entire community is the flock and can be administered by all the priests as in the past 100 years plus. 4.The administrative needs of two churches have not outgrown the capability of one governing body. The final analysis is stay one community with two churches. [856]


I attend both churches and there is a definite difference between the two. There is no reason not to have 2 parish councils & 2 separate churches. The Catholic church does it & they are just fine. We need to take a step forward rather than 10 steps back. Don't hide the fact that there is definitely an underlying discontent between the 2 churches. There are some people that refuse to go to the other church. One church has mostly Greek. The other is 1/2 & 1/2. This community is already split and has been for years. (1051)


Who ever put this form together doesn't know the difference between a survey and a ballot(995)

It is long over-due! -Start looking to the future, instead of the past. (746)