“Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them,

and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you:

but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto,

but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28, KJV)

The word the Athenians used for their Assembly was Ekklesia, the same word used in the New Testament for Church
(and it is the greatest philological irony in all of Western history that this word,
which connoted equal participation in all deliberation by all members,
came to designate a kind of self-perpetuating, self-protective Spartan gerousia -
which would have seemed patent nonsense to Greek-speaking Christians of New Testament times,
who believed themselves to be equal members of their Assembly.)

- Thomas Cahill, Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Matter


Sunday, February 15, 2009

Rollback 1

Moderators Note: TOCB has advocated the unity of this community and looks to return to one Proistameno and one Philoptochos which should have occurred upon the receipt of the Metropolitan's letter announcing there would be no split. We roll back the clock to the November 2007 General Assembly where the much heralded survey results were announced. The survey responses posted are done so as they were received. TOCB has not edited or altered the survey responses.

Responses to HT/PE Survey: Comments (Attending PE 2-5 )

I only agree to two communities as long as Greek Festival profits are divided equally. Also, spiritual Father(s) for parishioners, regardless of which church they attend should not be pressured to change according to where the priest ends up. Also if one wants to marry, baptize, of have any other sacrament done, not be pressured or required to become a steward of that church, which he is not a steward of, as long as he/she is a steward of at least one or the other church. I only ask these things [sp] as a humble servant of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I pray that our Lord will work within our Bishops, Priests, Deacon, Parish Council, and stewards to come to a peaceful and positive [sp) solution. In conclusion I have always had faith in our Priests, and Bishops for any final authority & decision, as has always been the Orthodox Christian way. (1232)

Independence leads to progress. I've lived elsewhere and, there were more than one re k Orthodox Church. This didn't lead to disaster, the opposite was true. The churches supported each other's [ p) events and activities. By combining the youth groups our children will always know each other, Many people that attend Prophet Elias are very much un-involved, because their need & concerns are never addressed. By allowing each church its [sp] own council & priest, their talents and gifts will follow. As it is now many Prophet Elias faithful feel their voices are never heard and that Holy Trinity governs their church. Separating the churches is a positive move. Holy Trinity should not view this as a threat, and realize the vast number of Orthodox churches around the country are thriving under their own direction. An independent church will help spread Orthodoxy. It would be a beautiful testament to some day, see more than two Greek Orthodox churches in our ever-growing city, By involving more people you would see the fruits of more filled Orthodox churches. Thank you. -(968)

Will the results of this survey determine whether or not further exploring of two independent comm unities goes forward? If the survey results show significant support for our current sta tus, does that mean no further consideration of church separation will occur? (S02)

Two independent communities will allow each to thrive. Two councils will allow each to focus 011 the needs and growth of that particular parish. The hatred and half-truth discussions put forth in "the blog" have already "split the churches" in an unhealthy way. Now it's time to begin healing by have two independent parishes with each focusing on the real work of the church. (999)

This is not a survey it "IS" a ballot to vote up or down. There should have been more questions or id as presented to make this "ballot" a survey. (958)

[I support the concept of having tow independent]Parishes on one community We are still a community. {1179)

I would like to see us be two independent churches. As it was stated in the first letter I'm tired of being an "OVERFLOW church." It's time for a change. (107)

The more I check into this issue the more I realize the benefit of two independent churches:
1)Both will become stronger a people will take ownership into their own church.
2)The individual needs of each community can be focused on by a board that concentrates only on one church.
3)I'm tired of being considered the child (time to grow up).
Thanks . ( 90)

I support separating th communities mainly for the administrative and operational advantages in the day to day operation of the Prophet Elias church. It would end the "orphan" church status of Prophet Elias. By this I mean that when valuable pieces of equipment (e.g. a cooker costing thousands) ar purchased for P.E. , it usually ends up at H.T., and maybe one of H.T' older pieces of equipment is sent back to replace it. This and the general neglect of P.E. (old carpets, no maintenance for water pump, vandalism} is why P.E. is an "orphan" or "outlaw" church. (separate paragraph continues response)

I don't really accept the "spiritual polygamy" argument from canon law for parating the churches. If it was so, why did the Archdiocese allow it at all? Did they grant some dispensation? If dispensation was granted, why after all this time is it no longer acceptable'? I would perhaps accept this argument if it were properly explained in its historical context, with respect to our community. Also, it would seem more sincere if other not minor canon law violations at P,E. and H.T. were corrected first. Fortunately, steps in that direction have been taken (no more paraffin candles). (separate paragraph continue response)

But realistically, I don't see the churches becoming two separate parishes , short of Divine intervention. Any attempt at separating the churches without the Lord's help would certainly be less than amicable, with fights over money, assets, power, etc. [separate paragraph continues response]

Basically, I feel that P.E. should be treated like a church, not an "outlaw"church. If it's under the current parish, or its [sp] own, it doesn't really matter to me. But given the track record of the current parish, I don't think that the attitude will change much, and the "overflow" church mentality will remain. That's why I feel that splitting the churches might be best. (545}

I question the credibility of this survey -duplicate packets were sent to us -Only one was returned. hope others that received duplicate packet· only returned one. I will challenge the quote of the Metropolitan. This is not true. (378) Note: This was Sakis Sakellariou's

Each church should have their own Parish Council so they can work on the needs of their own Parish.
It is time to have our own parish council so the needs of each church can be met. Prophet Elias has many needs that are never addressed. [sfragitha; no number]

We should be ashamed that there are not or 4 independent Greek Orthodox churches/ parishes in Metropolitan Salt Lake City. Independence will enhance community life, not divide it. Let my people go! (Exodus 5:1) (950)

Over the years I have come to realize that having two churches with one parish council is similar to a dysfunctional family and very much like a divorced couple sharing custody of their children. The arguing is tiresome, it is time to grow in Christ by having two independent churches. Why the catholic who arrived at the same time as the Greek Orthodox have many churches? Why haven't we grown? I have met many people at social functions as well as my work place who say "I used to be Greek, now I am...(either Mormon or Catholic)1 (951)

The concept of two parishes [sp] is a good one. The timing and details are very critical for a succesful split. We need to decide our future together as a family, and find good solutions to the challenge that we will face as l or 2 Orthodox communities that will continue to grow. (896)

Transcriber's note: Attached is a copy of the typewritten response of one of our families (1274), which comprises page 5.

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