“Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them,

and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

But it shall not be so among you:

but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto,

but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28, KJV)

The word the Athenians used for their Assembly was Ekklesia, the same word used in the New Testament for Church
(and it is the greatest philological irony in all of Western history that this word,
which connoted equal participation in all deliberation by all members,
came to designate a kind of self-perpetuating, self-protective Spartan gerousia -
which would have seemed patent nonsense to Greek-speaking Christians of New Testament times,
who believed themselves to be equal members of their Assembly.)

- Thomas Cahill, Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Matter


Tuesday, February 10, 2009


Moderators Note: TOCB has advocated the unity of this community and looks to return to one Proistameno and one Philoptochos which should have occurred upon the receipt of the Metropolitan's letter announcing there would be no split. We roll back the clock to the November 2007 General Assembly where the much heralded survey results were announced. At the same time, promises were made regarding making public the comments included in that survey. Below is what we were promised by our then and now president:

"The subsequent information that has been collected will all be shared with the parish. In addition, we received a lot of comments from our parishioners. There was no way we would be able to have that prepared for you so within the next, hopefully two weeks, we will be pulling that together and putting it in some format that allows you to see what the comments related to. We will get that out as soon as possible. It's a little bit of a task but we will do this."

Fifteen months later, we have yet to see this promise fulfilled. In fact, we were told at the November 2008 General Assembly that "we decided not to" make those comments public. We at TOCB believe that those comments need to be made public and the secrecy that has existed here for far too long must stop. With that in mind, we will publish all comments as they were received over the next several posts.

Responses to HT/ PE Survey: (Attending PE)/l of 5

There is no reason not to progress into the future, instead of doing the same thing that held back the Greek Orthodox of Salt Lake City. I feel members will become more involved in all areas (113)

I do not think joint youth groups, dance groups, etc. would work. (679)

I would like to see a joint Greek Festival but do not believe that joint youth groups, dance groups, etc. would be practical. (641)

This is a decision to be made by our loving Bishop Isaiah. (688)

Let's [sp] take our head out of the sand and be progressive. There is no good reason to remain 1 parish. Each church now has a Philoptochos, a Proestamenos; let's [sp] keep going. (1054)

If the two churches separate [sp) I would hope it would be peaceful and without hard feelings. We are after all both Orthodox churches and I would be able to attend either one if I so desired. (233)

I believe the eventually separation of our churches is inevitable. Beginning the process of exploring this concept seems prudent at this time. Of course, many questions and issues will need to be addressed such as the division of resources (Financial, manpower, etc.) necessary to sustain both churches independently. Holy Trinity and Prophet Elias churches have been evolving steadily into two distinct communities for quite some time. There seems to be strong feelings about "church identity" among many parishioners and the sense is that those who attend one church or the other have developed a greater degree of ownership toward the church they attend. Separation will not be easy but worth considering as a serious idea. (496)

Both churches seem to have their own identity already. The may as well continue in that manner with total separation. (1156)

The larger the church the more difficult it is to manage - I have belonged to small parishes - they exhibit more love and Christianity than the larger (1272)

As far as I can see, this "community" is already split. I don't see why anyone is up in arms about separation [sp]. Maybe with a split P.E. can actually get repairs/maintenance taken care of without all the funds being diverted to HT (996)

It seems that some influential community leaders who typically attend at Holy Trinity have a secular mindset. By this I mean that they with to develop properties with joint venture partners, take on debt, work around the clergy, archdiocese, the UPR's, promote secular corporations, etc. Two sets of leaders in 2 parish councils would be a more effective means of meeting challenges unique to each Parish. It would also allow each Parish to progress without one restraining the other. (218)

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